Vol.13

Buyer & Director, Art Director at SML
Shohei Uno（part 2）

Shohei Uno is the owner of the tableware shop SML, which is located in a residential area in Aobadai, Meguro, Tokyo. He has a close friendship with Masakazu Shigeta, the OSAJI brand founder, who also hosts the Idealism series. They have discussed a wide range of topics, from Japanese tableware, folk craft and design, music, and food to current affairs over sake. The theme of today’s dialogue between the two is “editing.”

The word “editing” is not limited to editing books, and the method is utilized in various fields these days, including corporate marketing, business building, product development, and sales floor design. In a situation where new players such as YouTube and Instagram have gained power in promoting products and services, what will be the role of the editor and the value of editing in selecting material and connecting it to provide to the public? The two exchanged frank opinions, as usual, over sake.

(Click here for the first half of the interview.)

“What is important in a market-oriented approach is not to meet the needs but to meet what lies beyond the needs.” (Shigeta)

——Is the reason you chose “editing” as today’s theme because you feel its role and value have relatively declined, and you want to do something to change the situation?

Masakazu Shigeta: First of all, I don’t want editorial skills to focus only in the small business field. Also, I always feel something is wrong when those involved in editing between “selling” and “buying” say they try not to make hit products as a promotional technique because they do not want it to be over-consumed. Although I understand what they are trying to say, whether or not it sells well entirely depends on the product’s potential. Besides, something truly excellent will never get behind the times, even with how much buzz it gets. If something fades away after getting a lot of buzzes, it only means the product does not have enough power to attract people from the beginning.

This is a very simple story; what products get is all they deserve. There are too many people these days who are involved in editing and think small business scale is enough even before they start selling something. Also, when the business scale becomes macro, the editing is totally ignored, and everybody starts talking about efficiency. I feel both of them lack balance, and my honest opinion is that we have to think about editing more carefully.

——What is the best balance between efficiency and editing in macro business? Also, what are the key points to achieve it?

Shigeta: There often comes discussion about whether the process of making products should be product-oriented or market-oriented. I have always said that I am on the product-oriented side, but recently, I have come to think it is not the correct way to express myself. Because the basics of product development are all market-oriented. The reason is that you don’t produce anything without need in the first place. Only a few artists might create something with the clear recognition that there is no market need.

——So, do you think even Steve Jobs was market-oriented?

Shigeta: I think so. What is important in a market-oriented approach is not to meet the needs but to meet what lies beyond the needs.

Shohei Uno: No matter how much you meet needs, things that do not attract people do not sell well.

Shigeta: At the macro level, it has been said that meeting needs is the most efficient way. But it does not make society better, nor does it give the excitement and pleasure that comes from having the product in their hands. You can provide emotion and joy only when you meet something beyond people’s needs. So, it is incorrect to say there is no need to meet the needs. At least, as long as we do business that people pay for, we have to keep meeting their needs.

——What you just talked about is something like a market-oriented approach 2.0 or 3.0.

Shigeta: It can be so. Considering what people essentially pay for, it must be the emotion that lies beyond function. Products that do not meet it will not move people. How can I evoke new emotions? That is what I put energy most into when I think about products.

Uno: I can’t agree more. Japanese manufacturers only focus on functions. But fundamentally, it is more important to think about how to make customers feel obtaining something will make them experience a new world and get them excited. That is what exactly Apple does. The same can be said in the world of tableware. You have to give a proposal that makes people think that having your dishes will completely change their lives over the dining table. If you can propose such a miraculous dish, that is the best.

“It is important to try various things, even if it is a kind of extension of the hobby. Nobody can tell if it is good or bad until you try it.” (Uno)

Shigeta: As I also mentioned a little in the editorial note of the last dialogue, after the experience of giving a lecture to the 5th-grade students, I gave them the name “the essential native generation.” The characteristic of their generation is the ability to grasp the essence of things very intuitively. I strongly felt it when I received questions and feedback about the lecture.

Suppose people start selecting things based on their pure feelings rather than being influenced by peer pressure or people around them. In that case, society will definitely move in a positive direction. Mr. Uno and I have been working with the idea in mind. We believe the fire will flare up at some point in the future as long as we can endure the present.

——Do you mean we have to wait while the fire is smoldering?

Shigeta: Sometimes, embers smoldering for 10 years suddenly start burning cheerfully. The question is whether or not you can wait until that moment, or you will just lose patience and put out the fire. Once you put it out, the project is a failure. However, as long as there is fire, it is not a failure.

Uno: I have also had a lot of failures, but it is important not to take them as failures. Especially for small shops like ours, it is important to try various things, even if it is a kind of extension of the hobby. Nobody can tell if it is good or bad until you try it. I do not have an idea of moving on to the next step once I succeed or stopping it once I fail.

Shigeta: People in the “essential native generation” find ways to coexist with people and things around them based on the idea that they are who they are regardless of what people and things are like. Also, they will gradually notice the contribution of their performance to the group is higher when they are with people who are completely different from them rather than when they are with people similar to them. The same is true for the family as a group. Parents tend to feel reassured if their children resemble them or have similar thoughts to them. But it does not always guarantee a strong family bond or happiness. On the contrary, daughters and sons having completely different ideas from those of their parents will make the strength of the family more solid and achieve high performance.

Uno: That is exactly what you mean by “a pack of lone wolves.”

Shigeta: Exactly. All of my friends are basically lone wolves, but they form a group. So, they do not take group action. You and I are basically lone wolves, and we will never become the same tribe.

Uno: It is interesting because those lone wolves gather together under Mr. Shgeta as the boss.

Shigeta: At the Iriya Conference, which I organize, people are all lone wolves, and they can not hold conversations between them. However, the fact that the conversations don’t go well is not a bad thing; it develops to make them notice new insights that they never imagined.

Making agreeable responses makes people comfortable, but it does not add any depth to conversations. It is more meaningful to dig into it by saying, “Oh, I have no idea what you are talking about,” and it will expand your thoughts.

Uno: What those who want to stick together think is really boring. No matter what I say, all you get is reactions like “I agree, I agree.” On the contrary, what lone wolves talk about is really interesting. That is why I try to attend the drinking parties that Mr. Shigeta holds as much as possible.

“Branding with the editor’s characteristics is dangerous. Not limited to editors or curators, such a tendency is accelerated these days in various fields.” (Shigeta)

——Mr. Uno, from your viewpoint, are there any similarities between you and Mr. Shigeta?

Uno: To be honest, I don’t think there are that many. But I am really interested in him. I am the type of person with little interest in others, but Mr. Shigeta is an exception. I like those who have an anti-social atmosphere (laughs).

Shigeta: I think we are both obsessed with the experiment. We want to start another experiment once we finish it. But people sometimes think I am the type of person who easily gets bored with things. In any case, both of us are the type of people who want to change things drastically from time to time rather than keep doing the same thing.

——It is the nature found in scientists or researchers.

Shigeta: Probably, we have continued cultural experiments.

——Is there any new experiment you want to carry out this year?

Shigeta: I want to say, “I got nothing to do this year!” at the end of 2025 (laughs).

Uno: You basically do not take a day off. Is that even possible?

Shigeta: I feel more often than before that something is wrong with the accuracy of projects. The physical decline is one thing, but I feel my immunity is declining as the number of people who can help me with projects has increased. That is a reason why I feel I give a lackluster.

Since I do not have to get directly involved with every small aspect of things, I feel it is a blessing to concentrate on what I have to do. But as the saying goes, “God is in the details.” I can not deny that some projects are lackluster, as I could not pay enough attention to small details. If that is the case, I have no choice but to reduce the number of projects.

Uno: I am not saying that I want someone to take over this shop, but I want to have my successor soon. There are very few people who have the same sensibilities as me, probably because the industry is narrow. I have a feeling of danger that the industry will further deteriorate if there are no people with the same feeling as me. Therefore, I have to train people who can share my sense of crisis.

Of course, I have no problem if anyone with such sense wants to take over the shop. However, the majority of people in this industry are people who like tableware and want to run a shop with their spouses. Some want to have a cutting-edge gallery, and it is exactly those people who want to get well-known or up-and-coming artists into their camp. Thinking about how many people have a sense of crisis in such a situation, I don’t think there are many.

——There is the word “produce,” which is often confused with “editing.” How do you distinguish the role between the two?

Shigeta: Whereas creators are in the center of editing, “produce” has a more collaborative nuance. Those on the production side are required to be creative, and they also play a significant role in creating works. My understanding is that the creator’s identity is at the center of editing, and collaboration is at the center of producing.

——How about you, Mr. Uno?

Uno: I think more creativity is required in producing than editing. I feel the materials are prepared in advance for editing, and you propose new value through the art of combination. So, the outcome will be naturally different depending on the editor, but the materials are the same. But after I opened this shop, I found it one of the most fun parts. It has a different sort of pleasure than the pain of creating something from nothing.

Shigeta: From that point of view, branding with the editor’s characteristics is dangerous. Not limited to editors or curators, such a tendency is accelerated these days in various fields. I don’t want to see a strange structure, and I don’t want the creative ecosystem to go in the wrong direction.

Uno: First of all, are editors creators? I know some editors who pretend to be creators…

Shigeta: Probably, we both imagine somebody’s face (laughs). But it is really dangerous. Even in the music industry, some playlist curators behave like creators, which I always find wrong. Even DJs are not creators, aren’t they?

Uno: I think DJ is still fine, as techniques are required.

Shigeta: Whether or not you can enjoy the fact that you are not a creator. Probably, that is the ultimate form of the editor.

——It seems we have come to a conclusion.

Shigeta: Yes, we have come to the conclusion that editors are not creators (laughs). I think creativity goes in the wrong direction if editors start to think they are creators.

Uno: I think that is true. I sometimes work on the creator’s side as a graphic designer, but I define myself as an editor when I am in the shop. Even when I create original products with artists, I still think I am an editor. Even if I draw the plans myself, my attitude does not change.

“What makes an organization interesting is generosity with which you can say, ‘You can think in whatever way you want.'” (Uno)

——How do you feel about today’s atmosphere compared to when you talked over drinks?

Uno: I am trying not to talk about things badly today.

Shigeta: Oh, really? But we talk badly about something, not because we want to belittle them. It would be boring if we became moralists who talk only about serious things. I want to keep being an emotional creature as a human being, and it is sometimes important to talk about things badly.

——I think that is a natural human feeling.

Uno: Life is not fun if there is no friction or stress.

Shigeta: Things tend to be conservative over time. Crafts and cosmetics are no exception. However, I want OSAJI to continue as a brand that values the aesthetics and sense of street culture. I am desperately trying to prevent it from becoming conservative.

Uno: We are in an era where street culture has become mainstream. What are you going to do when OSAJI becomes so?

Shigeta: Some might think they should go the other way once they become mainstream, but I don’t have such an idea. For example, what is good is good, and what is delicious is delicious, even if it is the food served in Chinese restaurants in your neighborhood, and that is the personality I hope OSAJI will continue to have.

However, it is actually difficult to explain it to staff members in words, so I have decided to make a concept movie. I am going to do everything from copywriting to production management. I am not planning to use it to appeal to the public, but I think I can at least convey my feelings as the founder. I want to make it something that members and people can sense something from.

Uno: So, you want staff members to notice your feelings.

Shigeta: After all, no matter how many persona sheets of OSAJI you write, it will not tell anything to anyone. It is not good if I don’t provide anything to those who do not have a clear idea of OSAJI and what we are aiming for. Making a concept movie is one of the ways to show it to them.

Uno: I think organizations with various tastes, like some like Chinese foods and others French, must be interesting. What makes an organization interesting is the generosity with which you can say, “You can think in whatever way you want.”

Shigeta: Even though you are satisfied with Chinese cuisine for daily food, you want to eat delicious French once a year. That is a natural thing. So, I don’t want to see things only in set forms; this one is always good, but that one is always bad.

The personality that the OSAJI brand aims for is being “universal.” I don’t want to make it “unchanging.” For example, you don’t wear the same outfit when you have dinner with Mr. A or Ms. B. It is a manner to consider which outfit you wear by thinking about the person you have dinner with. Or, you change the restaurant you go to depending on the person. Thinking about things like that is what hospitality is all about. I think that sort of personality is the universal element. It is not universal if you force someone to follow your way because that is what you like. That is what I want to convey. It is difficult to explain it in words, so I have decided to make a clip.

Uno: I am really looking forward to watching it.

Notes:
Iriya Kaigi (Iriya Conference)
Iriya Kaigi, or Iriya Conference, is an event organized by Masakazu Shigeta, where cultured people in the modern era gather and talk about the essence of culture by enjoying food and music.